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项目管理与PMP认证
这种项目如何管??(发表者:Franky) [发表于 2003/2/14]
状态 开放帖 浏览量 1892   
* 帖子主题 * [求助] 这种项目如何管?? 你是第 248 位浏览者
Franky


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目前一个大型的软件项目主动找上门来,项目的性质与公司的主攻方向相去甚远,本不打算接手。但公司声望在外,无奈招标方数次邀标,认定此标非我们莫属。
为此公司高层几经讨论,最终决定接手。但由于资金和人力方面的原因,又不打算专门开展这方面的业务,加上对于初期投入过大的担忧,于是打算把所有的设计、开发工作外包,而合同责任由公司承担,工程进度由公司控制。
对于外包项目,我在以前的公司曾经有过一些的经验。但其中的教训远远大于经验,外包项目最大的困难就是质量和进度的控制。
在那几次失败的教训中,我几乎淹没在这些问题中:为什么每次交给我的东西都不是我想要的?为什么每次快到交工的时候才告诉我还要再等两天?为什么系统的错误就那么多?甚至为什么无法确定系统最后的BUG是谁的错误?
这些问题,有的让我咬牙切齿、有的让我捶胸顿足,从而使我明白在这种松散式的管理中,制定清晰、确定而且的验收标准有多么重要。在而后的外包项目中,我的框架设计从未外包,模块划分明晰,严守标准力求明晰。
这样做虽然外包管理的成本增加了,但对于整体项目而言,由于修改、返工和维护费用的下降,公司的获益更大了。还有一个更不可思议的结果,我们惊奇的发现我们能接的项目也更多了。这似乎让人难以理解,可事实上是我们觉得条理清晰了,虽然忙,但能做的事情却跟多了,也就是说我们管的过来了。
可这次的工程却是设计外包,我实在是不知道该怎么办?如何控制,我怎么检查工作结果?怎么控制工作进度?如果设计不合理造成的工程延误怎么处理?系统产生无法说明的不稳定性有谁负责??
哪为有着方面的经验或想法,敬请不吝指教!谢谢!!

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月14日 12:13:16 ]


简言


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  你公司项目经理要评估项目复杂性,然后寻找可外包公司,然后对外包公进行考查(公司技术实力.协调能力.商业信誉.成功案例实施),确定外包公司后建议你公司与外包公成立一个项目管理办公室或工作组,确定实施人员工期进度(重要!!!)要重点考虑不能按时完工时的计划调整,阶段性目标(重要!!!),阶段性目标(重要!!!),确立外包公司项目汇报系统,定义项目问 题上报过程,形成记录文档(重要!!!!),确定软件设讲质量考核标准,验收标准(重要!!!)
  以上几点望能帮你打开思路,可参考项目管理知识体系

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灵犀者,简言之

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月14日 13:02:25 ]


西门吹血


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其实这种项目的运作有点OEM的感觉哦,不过需要你去制订一系列的标准和工作表

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一醉解千愁

千醉徒生不解愁

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月14日 13:02:30 ]


简言


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“在那几次失败的教训中,我几乎淹没在这些问题中:为什么每次交给我的东西都不是我想要的?为什么每次快到交工的时候才告诉我还要再等两天?为什么系统的错误就那么多?甚至为什么无法确定系统最后的BUG是谁的错误?”
你苦恼的问题,再于你没有一个很好的沟通机制与调整项目计划的机制,项目分解后,没有考虑由于项目团队成员落后于进度所造成的期望蔓延,所以你要定期检查他们汇报状态的准确性。不要到向客户提交产品时才考虑这些问题

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灵犀者,简言之

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月14日 13:15:23 ]


Franky


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多谢关注!项目管理方面我还是有一些经验,可对于设计外包的项目,就感到很乏力!
毕竟人员是外部的,团队也是松散的,很多对于内部团队的管理方法都用不上,比如进度控制,由于沟通不便,就困难多。还有质量问题,设计、开发、测试都是第三方把握,这与内部检查有又不同;
还有,没有上下级关系,轻度的进度完不成、质量不达标等情况,都无法得到很好的控制,可绳锯木断、水滴石穿,这些因素在内部管理时都是应该得到控制的。
我就是想问管理第三方资源时+设计外包,应该怎么处理?

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月14日 13:21:46 ]


简言


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!!我怎么检查工作结果?
客户在给你需求前,系统开发前,要让客户给你提交验收标准,以此来检查
!!怎么控制工作进度?
你可以使用定期报告系统(至少双周,单周是最好的,不断的累计调整,可以采用信号灯报告结合全偏差报告
!!如果设计不合理造成的工程延误怎么处理?系统产生无法说明的不稳定性有谁负责??
这里涉及到一个法律的责任归属问题,在你明确产品质量标准的前提下,由外包公司造成的延误,可由你公司追偿其责任,对于给客户造成的损失,由你公司承担,

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灵犀者,简言之

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月14日 13:30:11 ]


简言


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你怎么还不明的,为什么要你成立项目办公室,!!!!!

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灵犀者,简言之

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月14日 13:33:54 ]


简言


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由项目办公室或项目团队确定你们的沟通机制,团队工作规则,明确责任,先开一个头脑风暴会议,老兄明白了吗!!!!!

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灵犀者,简言之

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月14日 13:36:41 ]


简言


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你还没有深刻理角项目团队正正的意义,
这是人力资源管理的问题,太多了不谈了,

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灵犀者,简言之

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月14日 13:38:43 ]


>>> 由论坛统一发布的广告:
楼主 帅哥约,不在线,有人找我吗?bjyr


职务 论坛总版主
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Re:这种项目如何管??(发表者:Franky) [回复于 2003/2/14]
Franky


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哈哈哈哈!高见高见!!
从头到尾把项目管理的知识体系学习一遍,很多人可以得出一样的结论,可是你实践过吗?!
请不要理直气壮的把事情搞错!!
第一、客户提出的需求可以作为验收标准吗?!这些标准是一成不变的吗?!稍有项目管理经验的人都知道这些浅显的道理!!
第二、项目办公室这种官僚机构,你认为公司会同意吗?!你认为它在多大程度上能解决现有的管理问题,反之多半带来的是更大的混乱;
第三、工程进度报告多半流于形式,即使在公司内部执行都有困难,而在一个没有隶属关系的组织里怎么保证报告的有效性?
第四、你根本没有搞清楚我想问的问题,我们知道软件项目的管理是细致的,单纯的目标管理必须有坚实测试作为基础,而现在工程设计、施工、测试全部外包,在这种情况下,如何处理质量和进度控制,我想不是一个简单的课题!如果不是想探讨问题而是想乱教训人,就请你闭嘴!!!!

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月14日 14:23:00 ]


seismic99


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其实你们说的都很对,可是角度不同,谈法也就不一样了。
我的建议,你最好找一个水平比较高的系统分析员。软件项目中最重要的是需求,往往需求不明,或者是需求变更会造成项目整体进度延误。在与承包商签订合同的时候要明确,承包商的任务、职责和时间进度,将合同作为法律依据对承包商进行约束。
对于项目办公室,我觉得还是有必要成立的,尤其是你现在说的这种情况,项目参加人的利益不同,就会有处理事情的不同方法,这些肯定会对项目有影响,这些协调的工作主要要靠项目办公室来进行协调了。

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走啊走啊走啊走!

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月14日 16:47:51 ]


Franky


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多谢!
我也在思考建立项目小组的方案,这在我们的内部项目中是必需的,但公司对这个项目的态度是越少的投入越好,只让我在这个项目里担当领导者的角色,其他一切力量从外界获取,所以除非由非常充足的理由,否则很难实施,而这也正是让我头疼的问题。无论如何,多谢了!

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月14日 17:04:02 ]


唐朝


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Franky提到的这个案例其实具有很大的挑战性,他对质量与进度控制的风险也有很深的经验和认识。我想我们所要做的也就是如何降低这个风险。其实这一点从Franky的原文中可以找到不少有益的启示,第一个就是那个招标方为什么会力邀Franky的公司,原文没有指出具体原因,不过我可以设想Franky提到的他对项目的质量与进度控制是一个很重要的方面,同样道理,我们选择外包商时也可以仿效这个做法,考察对方对质量与进度控制的实施标准,一般说来是要求对方达到一个相应的标准,这个标准当然可以是一个公共标准,不过Franky可能会不以为然,因为我们都知道国内的公司实施标准很多是装样子的,另外一个就是由我们制定标准,不过这就难为承包商了,毕竟我们自己的标准未必适合别人的环境,再有一个方法是对承包商的技术队伍比较了解,可以指定对方专人来做,这其实是国内很多项目中采用的方法。Franky没有提及他们公司选择承包商的流程,我想这就是为什么大家提议成立一个项目办公室的原因。我想具体的选择原则和方式其实还是由公司的运转机制来决定的,关键是要降低风险。第二点我觉得比较重要的是原文中提到的如果出现问题责任谁负的问题,这就涉及风险转移的问题了。既然我们意识到这个问题,跟承包商谈合同时这个条款是必须加上的,一般都是我们在客户那儿的损失需要在承包商得到补偿的。第三个我觉得有意义的就是角色转换的问题,Franky提到的原来自己能控制的东西现在转到承包商那儿如何处理?这一点应该也能从招标方那儿得到启示吧,他们对我们的质量和进度又是如何控制的呢?我想我们还是需要信任对方吧,毕竟合作伙伴是我们自己选择的。标准和流程还是需要的到尊重的。在这个大的前提下,我们更多的是监督的工作,控制的工作应该基本由对方来完成吧。

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月14日 17:24:40 ]


Franky


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谢谢唐朝的理解,我之所以投标方会力邀我们公司,原因在邀标书中写的非常清楚:有相当的系统集成、软件开发和大型项目运作的能力,这一切都是我们的招牌项目带来的效果。
正是因为这样,我们知道这样一个大型的项目,没有相应的管理保证,最终产品将面目全非,而偏偏我们又不想真正开展这方面的业务,也就是因为这样,公司的高层才会犹豫再三。
整个事情就像天上掉馅饼,可偏偏又不合口味——食之无味弃之可惜。可重赏之下出英雄,公司想冒这个险,去尝试这中间可能的利润,而这个任务就落在了我的头上,而公司呢又找了一批“深得信任的人”(熟人,其中包括老板的弟弟)来承担开发,面临的挑战可想而知。
总之,多谢唐朝提供的思路,我想,最终这件事情还是要做,我只能在做的过程中看怎么做得更好!谢谢!!!!

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月14日 18:28:41 ]


faye2002


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其实还有一点,所有的上面所提的控制手段一定要与经济利益相结合,也就是在书面文件中必须明确了违约的经济责任,而且要细分到各阶段及时体现,不能等到项目结束算才总帐就晚了!
经济基础决定上层建筑,这一手段的有效性是可见的。
仅供参考。

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三人行,必有我师。

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月15日 8:20:07 ]


life


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我觉得比较难的还是那批“深得信任得人”,和老板关系到这种地步,经济利益可能很难和控制手段结合起来了

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月15日 9:10:39 ]


hwardpan


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我有一篇相关的文章 -- Software Subcontract Management
有兴趣,可以留个mail地址。

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The best just got better

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月15日 9:19:05 ]

1楼 帅哥约,不在线,有人找我吗?bjyr


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Re:这种项目如何管??(发表者:Franky) [回复于 2003/2/14]
Franky


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多谢!你可以贴在这里,大家一起参考啊!

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月15日 9:31:30 ]


hwardpan


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贴在这,格式都没了,有点不大方便阅读,如有需要,留个mail吧。
Software Subcontract Management
a key process area for level 2: Repeatable

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The purpose of Software Subcontract Management is to select qualified software subcontractors and manage them effectively.
Software Subcontract Management involves selecting a software subcontractor, establishing commitments with the subcontractor, and tracking and reviewing the subcontractor's performance and results. These practices cover the management of a software (only) subcontract, as well as the management of the software component of a subcontract that includes software, hardware, and possibly other system components.

The subcontractor is selected based on its ability to perform the work. Many factors contribute to the decision to subcontract a portion of the prime contractor's work. Subcontractors may be selected based on strategic business alliances, as well as technical considerations. The practices of this key process area address the traditional acquisition process associated with subcontracting a defined portion of the work to another organization.

When subcontracting, a documented agreement covering the technical and nontechnical (e.g., delivery dates) requirements is established and is used as the basis for managing the subcontract. The work to be done by the subcontractor and the plans for the work are documented. The standards that are to be followed by the subcontractor are compatible with the prime contractor's standards.

The software planning, tracking, and oversight activities for the subcontracted work are performed by the subcontractor. The prime contractor ensures that these planning, tracking, and oversight activities are performed appropriately and that the software products delivered by the subcontractor satisfy their acceptance criteria. The prime contractor works with the subcontractor to manage their product and process interfaces.

Goals
Goal 1
The prime contractor selects qualified software subcontractors.

Goal 2
The prime contractor and the software subcontractor agree to their commitments to each other.

Goal 3
The prime contractor and the software subcontractor maintain ongoing communications.

Goal 4
The prime contractor tracks the software subcontractor's actual results and performance against its commitments.

Commitment to perform
Commitment 1 -- The project follows a written organizational policy for managing the software subcontract.
This policy typically specifies that:
Documented standards and procedures are used in selecting software subcontractors and managing the software subcontracts.
The contractual agreements form the basis for managing the subcontract.
Changes to the subcontract are made with the involvement and agreement of both the prime contractor and the subcontractor.
Commitment 2 -- A subcontract manager is designated to be responsible for establishing and managing the software subcontract.
The subcontract manager is knowledgeable and experienced in software engineering or has individuals assigned who have that knowledge and experience.
The subcontract manager is responsible for coordinating the technical scope of work to be subcontracted and the terms and conditions of the subcontract with the affected parties.
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The project's system engineering group and software engineering group define the technical scope of the work to be subcontracted.
The appropriate business function groups, such as purchasing, finance, and legal, establish and monitor the terms and conditions of the subcontract.


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The subcontract manager is responsible for:
selecting the software subcontractor,
managing the software subcontract, and
arranging for the post-subcontract support of the subcontracted products.
Ability to perform
Ability 1 -- Adequate resources and funding are provided for selecting the software subcontractor and managing the subcontract.
Software managers and other individuals are assigned specific responsibilities for managing the subcontract.
Tools to support managing the subcontract are made available.
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Examples of support tools include:
estimating models,
spreadsheet programs, and
project management and scheduling programs.

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Ability 2 -- Software managers and other individuals who are involved in establishing and managing the software subcontract are trained to perform these activities.

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Examples of training include:
preparing and planning for software subcontracting,
evaluating a subcontract bidder's software process capability,
evaluating a subcontract bidder's software estimates and plans,
selecting a subcontractor, and
managing a subcontract.

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Ability 3 -- Software managers and other individuals who are involved in managing the software subcontract receive orientation in the technical aspects of the subcontract.

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Examples of orientation include:
application domain,
software technologies being applied,
software tools being used,
methodologies being used,
standards being used, and
procedures being used.

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Activities performed
Activity 1 -- The work to be subcontracted is defined and planned according to a documented procedure.
This procedure typically specifies that:
The software products and activities to be subcontracted are selected based on a balanced assessment of both technical and nontechnical characteristics of the project.
The functions or subsystems to be subcontracted are selected to match the skills and capabilities of potential subcontractors.
The specification of the software products and activities to be subcontracted is determined based on a systematic analysis and appropriate partitioning of the system and software requirements.
The specification of the work to be subcontracted and the standards and procedures to be followed are derived from the project's:
statement of work,
system requirements allocated to software,
software requirements,
software development plan, and
software standards and procedures.
A subcontract statement of work is:
prepared,
reviewed,
agreed to,
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Examples of individuals who review and agree to the subcontract statement of work include:
the project manager,
the project software manager,
the responsible software managers,
the software configuration management manager,
the software quality assurance manager, and
the subcontract manager.

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revised when necessary, and
managed and controlled.
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"Managed and controlled" implies that the version of the work product in use at a given time (past or present) is known (i.e., version control), and changes are incorporated in a controlled manner (i.e., change control).
If a greater degree of control than is implied by "managed and controlled" is desired, the work product can be placed under the full discipline of configuration management, as is described in the Software Configuration Management key process area.


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Refer to Ability 1 of the Software Project Planning key process area for practices covering typical contents of the statement of work.


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A plan for selecting a subcontractor is prepared concurrent with the subcontract statement of work and is reviewed, as appropriate.
Activity 2 -- The software subcontractor is selected, based on an evaluation of the subcontract bidders' ability to perform the work, according to a documented procedure.
This procedure covers the evaluation of:
Proposals submitted for the planned subcontract.
Prior performance records on similar work, if available.
The geographic locations of the subcontract bidders' organizations relative to the prime contractor.
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Effective management of some subcontracts may require frequent face-to-face interactions.


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Software engineering and software management capabilities.
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An example of a method to evaluate subcontractors' capabilities is the SEI Software Capability Evaluation method.


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Staff available to perform the work.
Prior experience in similar applications, including software expertise on the subcontractor's software management team.
Available resources.
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Examples of resources include:
facilities,
hardware,
software, and
training.

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Activity 3 -- The contractual agreement between the prime contractor and the software subcontractor is used as the basis for managing the subcontract.
The contractual agreement documents:
The terms and conditions.
The statement of work.
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Refer to Ability 1 of the Software Project Planning key process area for practices covering the typical contents of a statement of work.


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The requirements for the products to be developed.
The list of dependencies between the subcontractor and the prime contractor.
The subcontracted products to be delivered to the prime contractor.
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Examples of products include:
source code,
software development plan,
simulation environment,
design documentation, and
acceptance test plan.

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The conditions under which revisions to products are to be submitted.
The acceptance procedures and acceptance criteria to be used in evaluating the subcontracted products before they are accepted by the prime contractor.
The procedures and evaluation criteriato be used by the prime contractor to monitor and evaluate the subcontractor's performance.
Activity 4 -- A documented subcontractor's software development plan is reviewed and approved by the prime contractor.
This software development plan covers (directly or by reference) the appropriate items from the prime contractor's software development plan.
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In some cases, the prime contractor's software development plan, may include the software development plan for the subcontractor, and no separate subcontractor's software development plan is needed.


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Refer to Activity 7 of the Software Project Planning key process area for practices covering content of the project's software development plan.


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Activity 5 -- A documented and approved subcontractor's software development plan is used for tracking the software activities and communicating status.
Activity 6 -- Changes to the software subcontractor's statement of work, subcontract terms and conditions, and other commitments are resolved according to a documented procedure.
This procedure typically specifies that all affected groups of both the prime contractor and the subcontractor are involved.
Activity 7 -- The prime contractor's management conducts periodic status/coordination reviews with the software subcontractor's management.
The subcontractor is provided with visibility of the needs and desires of the product's customers and end users, as appropriate.
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The end users referred to in these practices are the customer designated end users or representatives of the end users.


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The subcontractor's technical, cost, staffing, and schedule performance is reviewed against the subcontractor's software development plan.
Computer resources designated as critical for the project are reviewed; the subcontractor's contribution to the current estimates are tracked and compared to the estimates for each software component as documented in the subcontractor's software development plan.
Critical dependencies and commitments between the subcontractor's software engineering group and other subcontractor groups are addressed.
Critical dependencies and commitments between the prime contractor and the subcontractor are addressed.
Subcontractor commitments to the prime contractor and prime contractor commitments to the subcontractor are both reviewed.
Nonconformance to the subcontract is addressed.
Project risks involving the subcontractor's work are addressed.
Conflicts and issues not resolvable internally by the subcontractor are addressed.
Action items are assigned, reviewed, and tracked to closure.
Activity 8 -- Periodic technical reviews and interchanges are held with the software subcontractor.
These reviews:
Provide the subcontractor with visibility of the customer's and end users' needs and desires, as appropriate.
Monitor the subcontractor's technical activities.
Verify that the subcontractor's interpretation and implementation of the technical requirements conform to the prime contractor's requirements.
Verify that commitments are being met.
Verify that technical issues are resolved in a timely manner.
Activity 9 -- Formal reviews to address the subcontractor's software engineering accomplishments and results are conducted at selected milestones according to a documented procedure.
This procedure typically specifies that:
Reviews are preplanned and documented in the statement of work.
Reviews address the subcontractor's commitments for, plans for, and status of the software activities.
Significant issues, action items, and decisions are identified and documented.
Software risks are addressed.
The subcontractor's software development plan is refined, as appropriate.
Activity 10 -- The prime contractor's software quality assurance group monitors the subcontractor's software quality assurance activities according to a documented procedure.
This procedure typically specifies that:
The subcontractor's plans, resources, procedures, and standards for software quality assurance are periodically reviewed to ensure they are adequate to monitor the subcontractor's performance.
Regular reviews of the subcontractor are conducted to ensure the approved procedures and standards are being followed.
The prime contractor's software quality assurance group spot checks the subcontractor's software engineering activities and products.
The prime contractor's software quality assurance group audits the subcontractor's software quality assurance records, as appropriate
The subcontractor's records of its software quality assurance activities are periodically audited to assess how well the software quality assurance plans, standards, and procedures are being followed.
Activity 11 -- The prime contractor's software configuration management group monitors the subcontractor's activities for software configuration management according to a documented procedure.
This procedure typically specifies that:
The subcontractor's plans, resources, procedures, and standards for software configuration management are reviewed to ensure they are adequate.
The prime contractor and the subcontractor coordinate their activities on matters relating to software configuration management to ensure that the subcontractor's products can be readily integrated or incorporated into the project environment of the prime contractor.
The subcontractor's software baseline library is periodically audited to assess how well the standards and procedures for software configuration management are being followed and how effective they are in managing the software baseline.
Activity 12 -- The prime contractor conducts acceptance testing as part of the delivery of the subcontractor's software products according to a documented procedure.
This procedure typically specifies that:
The acceptance procedures and acceptance criteria for each product are defined, reviewed, and approved by both the prime contractor and the subcontractor prior to the test.
The results of the acceptance tests are documented.
An action plan is established for any software product that does not pass its acceptance test.
Activity 13 -- The software subcontractor's performance is evaluated on a periodic basis, and the evaluation is reviewed with the subcontractor.

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Evaluation of the subcontractor's performance provides an opportunity for the subcontractor to obtain feedback on whether or not it is satisfying its customer's (i.e., the prime contractor's) needs. A mechanism such as performance award fee reviews provides this type of feedback, as opposed to the periodic coordination and technical reviews which occur throughout the project. Documentation of these evaluations also acts as input for future subcontractor selection activities.


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Measurement and analysis
Measurement 1 -- Measurements are made and used to determine the status of the activities for managing the software subcontract.

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Examples of measurements include:
costs of the activities for managing the subcontract compared to the plan,
actual delivery dates for subcontracted products compared to the plan, and
actual dates of prime contractor deliveries to the subcontractor compared to the plan.

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Verifying implementation
Verification 1 -- The activities for managing the software subcontract are reviewed with senior management on a periodic basis.

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The primary purpose of periodic reviews by senior management is to provide awareness of and insight into software process activities at an appropriate level of abstraction and in a timely manner. The time between reviews should meet the needs of the organization and may be lengthy, as long as adequate mechanisms for exception reporting are available.


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Refer to Verification 1 of the Software Project Tracking and Oversight key process area for practices covering the typical content of senior management oversight reviews.


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Verification 2 -- The activities for managing the software subcontract are reviewed with the project manager on both a periodic and event-driven basis.

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Refer to Verification 2 of the Software Project Tracking and Oversight key process area for practices covering the typical content of project management oversight reviews.


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Verification 3 -- The software quality assurance group reviews and/or audits the activities and work products for managing the software subcontract and reports the results

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Refer to the Software Quality Assurance key process area.


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At a minimum, the reviews and/or audits verify:
The activities for selecting the subcontractor.
The activities for managing the software subcontract.
The activities for coordinating configuration management activities of the prime contractor and subcontractor.
The conduct of planned reviews with the subcontractor.
The conduct of reviews that establish completion of key project milestones or stages for the subcontract.
The acceptance process for the subcontractor's software products.

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The best just got better

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月15日 9:37:34 ]


Franky


军衔: 三等兵
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这是MCC Level2的一个关键过程的文章,很有参考价值,还有其他类似的文章吗?我的Mail地址是su_zc@21cn.com,多谢了!!!

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月15日 9:47:53 ]


Franky


军衔: 三等兵
财产:
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来自: 不告诉你 :)
鉴定: 本功能已经被关闭
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Sorry,MCC是我们的产品,手误,应该是CMM,怡笑大方了

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[ 本文发表于 2002年8月15日 10:23:09 ]

2楼 帅哥约,不在线,有人找我吗?bjyr


职务 论坛总版主
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